nice comment. nice to hear some sane prespectives re: this article. good luck with your filmmaking work, let me know when stuff gets done.

- sujewa

i don’t think sujewa is being unnecessarily harsh here. (leave that to me.) he’s asking questions; one can only assume why some take such offense to this (insecurity?). i do think the interview was slightly hype-y, but that’s not a bad thing– obviously andrew and aaron have something to sell. i think they may have overstated the case a bit (sorry, but you guys do come across as “omg, no one’s ever done this before!” to which i would reply, “um, no, that’s not really true”), but that’s the sign of any salesman.

“More substantively, just because someone analogizes Mumblecore to the Beats doesn’t mean every single aspect of the Beats apply to Mumblecore. How could it? We’re in a very different historical moment, the people are different, we’re talking about a generally different medium than the literary Beats worked in. It’s an impossibility.”

if it’s such an “impossibility,” why was the analogy made in the first place? again, i think andrew and aaron overstated the case, but they obviously believe in “mumblecore,” so it’s to be expected. i don’t think hyping something equals insincerity. it *could*, however, mean that perhaps one isn’t especially receptive or keen on skepticism.

personally, i’m not much of a fan. i’ve seen a few of the films (even saw funny ha ha way back in 2004). i *do* think there’s quite a bit of narcissism going on and a pointed aversion to events/people outside the filmmakers’ cozy bubbles. i think this is one of the ways in which “mumblecore” differs from cassavetes: cassavetes made films about other people (e.g., shadows, killing of a chinese bookie, love streams)– not just about himself or people remarkably similar to him. another difference is that cassavetes’ characters are all going through some sort crises: lelia’s racial rejection, the forst’s disintegrating marriage, mabel’s breakdown and her husband’s betrayal, cosmo’s murder and double-cross, etc. “mumblecore” is like someone’s very ill-informed take on the man’s work. “oh, like, he just, like, turned on the camera and, like, caught his friends sitting around and, like, talking about stuff and it was all, like, totally improvised.” cassavetes stretched beyond himself and his comfort zones. his characters spoke and acted as if they knew what they were doing– they didn’t. they faked it and fooled themselves worse than they fooled anyone else. you come away from a cassavetes film thinking about the characters critically; there is no such critical insight offered in “mumblecore”– it is a completely surface movement. and anyway, how *can* there be? there’s no conflict, no ugliness, no darkness, nothing weird or unsettling. “mumblecore” characters are one-note, bland, passive-aggressive, privileged, and well-kept. it’s basically the same character in different hues of pasty skin. a bit like marie antoinette for the emo/scene crowd. it’s a great paean to consumerism: crush on someone, hook up w/ them, get bored w/ them, throw them away. yeah, cuz people are like neat little toys. sure, i guess that’s “revolutionary.” funny, i thought mtv already had that whole white, middle- to upper-class post-collegiate, consumerist demographic nailed.

one thing i like about “mumblecore,” though, is that it’s inspired me to make my own film about working-class twentysomethings who come from broken homes, are riddled w/ stress about work and money, and deal w/ their resentment and anxiety w/ violence, drugs, sex, etc. enough of this precious, coddled, mediocre, middle-american jive. the thought of having swanberg, et. al. be the “cinematic voice of my generation” chills me to my core. please, not all of us are self-obsessed, blinkered, spoiled d-bags.

Glad to hear you two are big fans of M-core, good for you. Nothing new to discuss since my last comment here, so, later on.

- Sujewa

Cut it out. You’re being an annoying prat.

More substantively, just because someone analogizes Mumblecore to the Beats doesn’t mean every single aspect of the Beats apply to Mumblecore. How could it? We’re in a very different historical moment, the people are different, we’re talking about a generally different medium than the literary Beats worked in. It’s an impossibility. Since Mumblecore is heavily influenced by Cassavetes, who has a lot of similarities to the literary Beats, the analogy isn’t out of left field.

Even more substantively, I find Mumblecore a lot more interesting than the Beats, whom I find severely underwhelming and massively overrated. I find Mumblecore taking precisely a tack towards the greatest of American literary traditions - the ambiguity and close attention to social situations of Henry James and Edith Wharton, Fitzgerald and the clear-eyed view of American life of Richard Yates.

In any case, Sujewa, you’re coming down pretty hard on this laudable fledgling distribution company and its founders here, whether that’s your intent or not. It seems natural that two film critics starting a boutique distribution company would be releasing stuff they really like, and that their enthusiasm for that work would come across in an interview like this. Despite your protestations, you continue to suggest that what they are saying is essentially hype. Hype, by definition, is insincere.

Apparently, you also don’t accept Andrew Grant’s perfectly plausible explanation of what he meant when he mentioned the Beats, and continue to use the club of a comparison that no one drew to Beat (sorry) on “mumblecore.” No one said it developed in a vacuum, and no one is claiming for it any greater socio-political import. I think your criticism of the “movement” is valid, but to me, the insularity of the films–as was the case with Cassavettes, and Linklater’s Slacker (a more likely source of inspiration than Burns’ limp, vain, misogynistic rom-coms)–has thematic resonance.

In any case, I appreciate your desire to have this discussion, but I think it was unnecessary to begin it in such a confrontational manner.

Yup, you are right, at least LOL (the version I saw) is unusual with those people-making-sounds clips cut in between the story. KOTM is only kind of unusual due to the nudity.

But have you tried reading Naked Lunch? Very strange book. Also, On The Road was unusual at the time - the subject matter & the story/”non-story” it tells, plus the way it was written - one long single paragraph.
By comparison, as a whole, the M-core stuff does not seem as experimental or unusual as the writings of the Beats; but yes, LOL & KOTM are more unusual than most movies & most M-core movies.

On the plus side, as Dogme 95 has done on an international scale, M-core is continuing to legitimize no/lo-budget, DV, no-star filmmaking - at least for some fest programmers, theater programmers & media outlets; which in the future can yield some very interesting films by other filmmakers - as the first wave of punk rock led to the Bad Brains, & later Nation of Ulysses, Fugazi, & probably even influenced DIY bands like They Might Be Giants, etc.

Maybe Beats & Punks are not good bunches of artists to compare to M-core, because Beats & Punks were interested in politics, activism & also issues dealing with minorities, foreigners/the others. It is this lack of concern for significant elements of the wider world (so far) by M-core filmmakers that makes me reluctant to place them on a same level of creative significance as the Beats. The Beats were very actively concerned with not only their own experience, but also people & things from other cultures, countries, including “foreign” things in their own country (black Jazz in segregated 40’s, Asian religion, etc.)- that openness & concern gives the beats, in my opinion, a generosity of spirit that M-core so far has not demonstrated.
This is not to say that “white” kids making movies about how difficult it is to commnicate with other “white” kids is not important - to me these two groups of artists (Beats & M-core) are in two different levels(Beats= local & global; self,friends & others vs. M-core=self & friends only) when it comes to what they are interestd in in this world. Jarmusch movies such as Down By Law, Mystery Train, Night On Earth are more Beat than any M-core movie I’ve seen. Although, the road trip in Puffy does remind me of On The Road a tiny, tiny bit.

One of the main differences that may account for the different concerns that Beats have vs. what M-core has may be their ages: the Beats were close to their mid-30’s or older when their stuff broke through to culture/a wider audience. M-core are all closer to mid-20’s, as Grant says on top. It may make sense to look at what M-core filmmakers do around 35 to see how they compare with what the Beats did around their mid-30’s (On The Road, Howl, etc.).

Anyway, I am all for all kinds of real indie flicks getting notice. But I am also interested in keeping things in proper perspective; and thus far the achievements of early John Cassavetes & that generation of indie filmmakers, or for that matter the Warhol generation of underground filmmakers or the early Jarmusch/Spike Lee/Hal Hartley era of indie filmmakers have not been matched by M-core or other filmmaking peers of mine (people who are making films in roughly the same point in time/right now- decade 1 of ’00’s).

It is possible that a significant amount of time needs to pass - like maybe a decade - to see what kind of influence & value a group of filmmakers might have on the medium & the industry, also the world. So this topic (how M-core relates in value to 80’s & 90’s indie film giants) will have to be revisted in 10 - 20 years.

That was a long response, sorry about that

See ya in NYC this week! Looking forward to the Gen DIY panel, possible catching Hannah, & also of course the blogger meet up.

- Sujewa

Questioning things is not disresptful, to ignore things (as I do with like 90% of film promo pieces I read every day) would be, perhaps, worse. Also, Mumblecore & related stuff is not a sacred topic, nothing is, everything is open for discussion.

I read you saying Mumblecore = Beats as you saying you believe the two groups are similar, not that you think journalists think that Beats and Mumblecore are the same, or same kind of thing with many artists grouped under one umbrella term. Regardless of who thinks it, I definitely don’t see a significant similarity between the two groups.

Also, I am a fan of a lot of good 80’s indie film, the Beats, some Ed Burns movies & his career (if you have not listned to any of his DVD commentary tracks, you are missing out on a lot of great low budget filmmaking tips - specially on Sidewalks of New York), and Dogme 95, your statements in the Spout blog interview came off as if Mumblecore filmmakers just magically appeared out of nowhere and eclipses all the remotely relevant people who came before; as if they (M-core) appeared with no help from the significant “genre” building done (creating & selling the idea of alternative culture to the masses by the Beats - the cultural & commercial space that indie film exists in/comes out of, Burns & other 90’s, also 80’s, indie filmmakers who made America & the industry take indie filmmaking seriously, Dogme 95 paving the path for digital production) by all of the people mentioned at the top of this paragraph. That seemed a little silly (though normal in promo speak for films/filmmakers) for someone like you - an indie film fan & a critic/reviewer who probably knows pretty well how things in this area of the art/industry came to be.

No doubt your enthusiasm for Mumblecore filmmakers is sincere.
I just had some objections to what I read, so typed them out, got them out so we & others can discuss it if needed - pretty much the usual that happens on film blogs.

I wouldn’t worry too much about my objections, the people who read this post are probably all big fans of Mumblecore movies.

I am of course still a fan of small film labels, Benten, etc. Just pointing out some things that I did not agree with in your public statements re: film & M-core at Spout.

- Sujewa

As someone who has written kind words about Benten in the past, I’m scratching my head wondering what triggered your excessive diatribe. Was it my dig at Ed Burns that set you off?

My likening of mumblecore to the Beats has nothing to do with their aesthetics, approach, technique, etc. As I said in my first sentence, it has to do with the tendency to group artists under a single umbrella, thereby making it easier for journalists (and others) to proffer generalizations about a “movement” without actually digging deeper into the individual works.

I find it both disrespectful and presumptuous (not to mention a bit silly) of you to assume that my “questionable hype” (??) is motivated by anything other than sincerity.

“ANDREW: I think there’s a natural inclination to group artists under a single umbrella.”

(OK)

“Mumblecore is to film what the Beats were to literature.”

(not true - On The Road was highly unusual in form - none of the M-core movies are, Allen Ginsburg was a protest artist & activist (Howl is a protest poem), none of the M-core filmmakers are, William Burroughs was highly experimental - M-core filmmakers are not; they, for the most part, make minimalist relationship movies, and where is the Amir Baraka/LeRoi Jones (name sp?) of the goup? All M-core filmmakers are “white”)

“They know each other socially, occasionally work together, but unlike, say, the Dogme crowd, there’s nothing like a manifesto tying them together.”

(OK, however, the existence of M-core owes a large debt to Dogme 95 making digital production acceptable as a professional format)

“Mumblecore even lacks a solid definition, so it’s terribly imprecise as a moniker.”

(except Grant’s, Hillis’s, Dentler’s & other’s M-core press often lists which filmmakers belong to the movement - so, who belongs is clearly defined)

“For instance, Todd Rohal’s The Guatemalan Handshake shares virtually nothing in common with Joe Swanberg’s films, yet Todd has been grouped into the fold because he has a role in Hannah Takes the Stairs.”

(OK)

“There are stylistic similarities between Aaron Katz’s first two films, but thematically, they’re like chalk and cheese.”

(maybe, have not seen Quiet City yet, from the trailer it seems similar to DPUSA)

“So perhaps it is just an easy hook, but when somebody writes a revised History of the Independent Film in 50 years, there’s something to be said for their loose collective.”

(we’ll see)

“Having spent time with quite a few of the Mumblecore set, I’m really taken aback by how non-competitive they are, and how they take great pains to help and support each other as filmmakers, unlike the me-centric ’80s.”

(OK, except friends have always worked on their friend’s movies in indie film, Jarmusch uses Spike Lee’s brother Cinque, Tarantino & Rodriguez work together, etc.)

“In the ’90s, the American indie world was full of Tarantino rip-offs and quirky rom-coms that functioned as little more than calling cards for studios, and that’s just not the case with these new directors.”

(some M-core movies have also served as calling card for studios - as the Puffy Chair makers & Mutual App maker works for studios now, and, 80’s & 90’s were the start of the indie film movement as we know it, and a lot of great indie films came out in those decades - Jarmusch, Spike Lee, Hatley, etc.)

“Advances in technology have made it possible to make great-looking films with very little cash, and some of these filmmakers are creating powerful works that act as polar opposites to the dreaded “high-concept film.””

(i don’t dread high concept films, neither do a lot of other people, high concept films are very popular)

“At a relatively young median age, they’ve found the critical distance in which to observe and comment on their world, and there’s none of the narcissism that was a staple of the last decade’s indie culture (see also: Ed Burns and Eric Schaeffer).”

(m-core stuff is definitely observational, not sure how much useful commenting they are doing, and not that this is a bad thing for artists, m-core is highly narcisstic)

“It’s just impressive and extremely refreshing. It’s also the first wave of American cinema that I can think of that is neither New York nor L.A.-based; it’s scattered throughout that vast area between the coasts.”

(m-core is not an entirely unique & separate wave in american indie cinema, it is just a few out of hundreds of indie filmmakers who are making & releasing ultra indie movies in this post-dogme 95 age)

::

aside from all that, it is however very cool that two film critics have started a DVD label (Benten Films) for low budget/no-star indie films.

- Sujewa

- Sujewa

. . .or, everything you always wanted to know about team Benten but were afraid to ask.Karina Longworth of the SpoutBlog kindly invited Aaron and me to partake in the Media Diet, where indie film movers and shakers are asked…