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	<title>Comments on: 10 Movies Featuring Allegorical Ghosts</title>
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	<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 02:53:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Christopher Campbell</title>
		<link>http://blog.spout.com/2008/09/17/10-movies-featuring-allegorical-ghosts/#comment-114374</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 04:47:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.spout.com/?p=5196#comment-114374</guid>
		<description>I guess, due to the comments of Roberto and eddienix, I must point out that my reference to Shakespeare was because of his employment of ghosts in so many plays. Not everyone can be Shakespeare, meaning not everyone can be a good enough writer that we forgive such overuse of a common plot device.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess, due to the comments of Roberto and eddienix, I must point out that my reference to Shakespeare was because of his employment of ghosts in so many plays. Not everyone can be Shakespeare, meaning not everyone can be a good enough writer that we forgive such overuse of a common plot device.</p>
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		<title>By: eddienix</title>
		<link>http://blog.spout.com/2008/09/17/10-movies-featuring-allegorical-ghosts/#comment-114369</link>
		<dc:creator>eddienix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 23:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.spout.com/?p=5196#comment-114369</guid>
		<description>Narrative genre films, good or bad, communicate metaphors.  Whether it is in horror, fantasy, science fiction, the musical, the western, the gangster flic, etc., the power (either effective or ineffective, conscious or unconscious) is in its agents to signify something deeper, be it political, psychological, sexual, socioeconomic, or something more mysteriously metaphorical that is harder to define (or perhaps "allegorical," if the structure of the metaphor is more pervasive).  This is nothing new.  Good horror movies would not be any different than good roller coasters or funhouses if they did not have a stronger, deeper reaching element of meaning going on.  Horror in particular relates strongly to our dreams in that the characters and settings in horror embody archetypes sprung from deep-seated fears and desires.  And the better horror/suspense filmmakers will frequently try and create a pacing or visual style that mimics the feel of a frightening dream (David Lynch in particular is the modern master of this).  

The Shakespeare comment was quite a flub.  Not only did Shakespeare use ghosts in work (most famously in Hamlet), but so did Rudyard Kipling, Henry James, Charles Dickens, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Ivan Turgenev, Guy de Maupassant, Edgar Allen Poe, etc.  These guys just happened to do it very well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Narrative genre films, good or bad, communicate metaphors.  Whether it is in horror, fantasy, science fiction, the musical, the western, the gangster flic, etc., the power (either effective or ineffective, conscious or unconscious) is in its agents to signify something deeper, be it political, psychological, sexual, socioeconomic, or something more mysteriously metaphorical that is harder to define (or perhaps &#8220;allegorical,&#8221; if the structure of the metaphor is more pervasive).  This is nothing new.  Good horror movies would not be any different than good roller coasters or funhouses if they did not have a stronger, deeper reaching element of meaning going on.  Horror in particular relates strongly to our dreams in that the characters and settings in horror embody archetypes sprung from deep-seated fears and desires.  And the better horror/suspense filmmakers will frequently try and create a pacing or visual style that mimics the feel of a frightening dream (David Lynch in particular is the modern master of this).  </p>
<p>The Shakespeare comment was quite a flub.  Not only did Shakespeare use ghosts in work (most famously in Hamlet), but so did Rudyard Kipling, Henry James, Charles Dickens, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Ivan Turgenev, Guy de Maupassant, Edgar Allen Poe, etc.  These guys just happened to do it very well.</p>
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		<title>By: Roberto</title>
		<link>http://blog.spout.com/2008/09/17/10-movies-featuring-allegorical-ghosts/#comment-114357</link>
		<dc:creator>Roberto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 17:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.spout.com/?p=5196#comment-114357</guid>
		<description>"Not everyone can be Shakespeare, and of course there is a lot of redundancy and (excuse the pun) lifelessness in the majority of movies involving ghosts."

You do know, of course, that Shakespeare used ghosts as a plot device in a number of his plays, including "Hamlet," "Julius Caesar" and "Richard III," to name three. They also involve the assassination of a leader in order to usurp their position of power. I guess Shakespeare can be considered guilty of a "lot of redunancy" in his plays too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Not everyone can be Shakespeare, and of course there is a lot of redundancy and (excuse the pun) lifelessness in the majority of movies involving ghosts.&#8221;</p>
<p>You do know, of course, that Shakespeare used ghosts as a plot device in a number of his plays, including &#8220;Hamlet,&#8221; &#8220;Julius Caesar&#8221; and &#8220;Richard III,&#8221; to name three. They also involve the assassination of a leader in order to usurp their position of power. I guess Shakespeare can be considered guilty of a &#8220;lot of redunancy&#8221; in his plays too.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa</title>
		<link>http://blog.spout.com/2008/09/17/10-movies-featuring-allegorical-ghosts/#comment-114355</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.spout.com/?p=5196#comment-114355</guid>
		<description>I actually wholeheartedly agree with your last point about Castle/ghostviewers/communism.  I think, if you consider the stretch you made the same way, the same could be said for Castle's House on Haunted Hill and Mr. Sardonicus.  (We only see what we want to see / we only believe what we think will keep the communists at bay).  Although the former is about the deterioration of marriage, the entire night is planned out to appear egalitarian in execution (all of their random guests have the same chance to win the money).  Since that's communistic, it leads to murderous intentions.  For the latter, you could argue, maybe very thinly, that Sardonicus' plight because of a buried lottery ticket is a communist stronghold because it prevents him from being more than the masses, not egalitarian.  I mean, had he just believed that his condition was an illusion (western thinking) then he would be able to enjoy his fortunes.  Alas, he lets 'communism' win by letting his fortune (and life) become meaningless.

Does any of that make sense?  Feel free to say no :P

I think, in spite of himself, Castle's films had more layers than he's given credit for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually wholeheartedly agree with your last point about Castle/ghostviewers/communism.  I think, if you consider the stretch you made the same way, the same could be said for Castle&#8217;s House on Haunted Hill and Mr. Sardonicus.  (We only see what we want to see / we only believe what we think will keep the communists at bay).  Although the former is about the deterioration of marriage, the entire night is planned out to appear egalitarian in execution (all of their random guests have the same chance to win the money).  Since that&#8217;s communistic, it leads to murderous intentions.  For the latter, you could argue, maybe very thinly, that Sardonicus&#8217; plight because of a buried lottery ticket is a communist stronghold because it prevents him from being more than the masses, not egalitarian.  I mean, had he just believed that his condition was an illusion (western thinking) then he would be able to enjoy his fortunes.  Alas, he lets &#8216;communism&#8217; win by letting his fortune (and life) become meaningless.</p>
<p>Does any of that make sense?  Feel free to say no <img src='http://blog.spout.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I think, in spite of himself, Castle&#8217;s films had more layers than he&#8217;s given credit for.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony M</title>
		<link>http://blog.spout.com/2008/09/17/10-movies-featuring-allegorical-ghosts/#comment-114328</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 18:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.spout.com/?p=5196#comment-114328</guid>
		<description>No quarrel with your point about the allegory. That's a valid way to take the story. 

If you'd like a couple recommendations that would further your ghosts-as-allegory subject, try the Haunting (original) and The Devil's Backbone. You'll have a field day with them...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No quarrel with your point about the allegory. That&#8217;s a valid way to take the story. </p>
<p>If you&#8217;d like a couple recommendations that would further your ghosts-as-allegory subject, try the Haunting (original) and The Devil&#8217;s Backbone. You&#8217;ll have a field day with them&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Campbell</title>
		<link>http://blog.spout.com/2008/09/17/10-movies-featuring-allegorical-ghosts/#comment-114327</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 18:31:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.spout.com/?p=5196#comment-114327</guid>
		<description>OK, by "nonexistence" I mean non-living. And my point is still valid. The things he chooses to see are still things that display an apparent insignificance in and inattention to his life prior to his death. I'll buy that he would choose to believe his wife no longer loves him than believe he is dead, but such belief would have to be grounded in some sort of reason in his mind. That reason would be that he wasn't there enough in life. Even if it's just in his head, the allegory still stands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, by &#8220;nonexistence&#8221; I mean non-living. And my point is still valid. The things he chooses to see are still things that display an apparent insignificance in and inattention to his life prior to his death. I&#8217;ll buy that he would choose to believe his wife no longer loves him than believe he is dead, but such belief would have to be grounded in some sort of reason in his mind. That reason would be that he wasn&#8217;t there enough in life. Even if it&#8217;s just in his head, the allegory still stands.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony M</title>
		<link>http://blog.spout.com/2008/09/17/10-movies-featuring-allegorical-ghosts/#comment-114325</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 18:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.spout.com/?p=5196#comment-114325</guid>
		<description>"The fact that, in The Sixth Sense, Bruce Willis doesn’t notice his nonexistence..." Huh? The point is that he does exist.

I don't expect sophisticated discussion of the paranormal on a friendly neighborhood film blog, but the confusion of the Willis character is much closer to how mediums and witnesses describe earthbound spirits across hundreds of years of paranormal research. One way it is often expressed is that they are "The psychotics of the spirit world". Their state is akin to mental illness. 

This is not a plot hole in the movie, however, as Cole's explanation is perfectly sufficient in terms of the story. "They don't know they're dead. They see want they want to see." 

The "plot hole" is nothing more than someone projecting his expectation of how ghosts should perceive (probably gleaned from other movies) rather than any internal inconsistencies in the story itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The fact that, in The Sixth Sense, Bruce Willis doesn’t notice his nonexistence&#8230;&#8221; Huh? The point is that he does exist.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t expect sophisticated discussion of the paranormal on a friendly neighborhood film blog, but the confusion of the Willis character is much closer to how mediums and witnesses describe earthbound spirits across hundreds of years of paranormal research. One way it is often expressed is that they are &#8220;The psychotics of the spirit world&#8221;. Their state is akin to mental illness. </p>
<p>This is not a plot hole in the movie, however, as Cole&#8217;s explanation is perfectly sufficient in terms of the story. &#8220;They don&#8217;t know they&#8217;re dead. They see want they want to see.&#8221; </p>
<p>The &#8220;plot hole&#8221; is nothing more than someone projecting his expectation of how ghosts should perceive (probably gleaned from other movies) rather than any internal inconsistencies in the story itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Campbell</title>
		<link>http://blog.spout.com/2008/09/17/10-movies-featuring-allegorical-ghosts/#comment-114322</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:44:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.spout.com/?p=5196#comment-114322</guid>
		<description>Ah, yes, perhaps I should have put the word scum in quotes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, yes, perhaps I should have put the word scum in quotes.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://blog.spout.com/2008/09/17/10-movies-featuring-allegorical-ghosts/#comment-114321</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.spout.com/?p=5196#comment-114321</guid>
		<description>'Homeless and other scum'?  Nice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Homeless and other scum&#8217;?  Nice.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Campbell</title>
		<link>http://blog.spout.com/2008/09/17/10-movies-featuring-allegorical-ghosts/#comment-114318</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:44:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.spout.com/?p=5196#comment-114318</guid>
		<description>Well, that's partly my point with the last one, Josh. My love for allegories and my love for facetious readings go hand in hand, precisely because they're like a game in which I force meaning upon things. Much of my film studies schooling seemed to be a part of this game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, that&#8217;s partly my point with the last one, Josh. My love for allegories and my love for facetious readings go hand in hand, precisely because they&#8217;re like a game in which I force meaning upon things. Much of my film studies schooling seemed to be a part of this game.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh P</title>
		<link>http://blog.spout.com/2008/09/17/10-movies-featuring-allegorical-ghosts/#comment-114317</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.spout.com/?p=5196#comment-114317</guid>
		<description>Wouldn't any ghost movie in the horror/suspense genre be parallel to terrorism?  Don't scary ghosts inherently "terrify"?  Terrorist is such a general term too, it might as well be "bad guys" (or perhaps... "evildoers"?).  And therein lies my problem with many people who love allegories.  You have a conclusion (the movie is symbolic of its political climate) and then you try to come up with a movie that agrees with you.  Ah, how the tail wags the dog when it comes to allegories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t any ghost movie in the horror/suspense genre be parallel to terrorism?  Don&#8217;t scary ghosts inherently &#8220;terrify&#8221;?  Terrorist is such a general term too, it might as well be &#8220;bad guys&#8221; (or perhaps&#8230; &#8220;evildoers&#8221;?).  And therein lies my problem with many people who love allegories.  You have a conclusion (the movie is symbolic of its political climate) and then you try to come up with a movie that agrees with you.  Ah, how the tail wags the dog when it comes to allegories.</p>
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		<title>By: Annette e Alvarez</title>
		<link>http://blog.spout.com/2008/09/17/10-movies-featuring-allegorical-ghosts/#comment-114305</link>
		<dc:creator>Annette e Alvarez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.spout.com/?p=5196#comment-114305</guid>
		<description>I just thought Poltergeist was a reflection of the Reagan era greed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just thought Poltergeist was a reflection of the Reagan era greed.</p>
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		<title>By: scotty</title>
		<link>http://blog.spout.com/2008/09/17/10-movies-featuring-allegorical-ghosts/#comment-114303</link>
		<dc:creator>scotty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 07:54:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.spout.com/?p=5196#comment-114303</guid>
		<description>uh, okay. i JUST watched the sixth sense tonight, and someone who hadn't seen it attempted to start the argument that i destroy every time it's brought up: the only reason why bruce willis doesn't notice he's dead is because he only sees snippets of his "life". Cole tells him that the ghosts see what they want to see, and don't know they're dead. It gets cold when they're angry, and they're only angry once they realise they're dead, hence why Bruce Willis's wife is shivering when he figures it out. He didn't get a whole life, he'd just pop in and out and not realise it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>uh, okay. i JUST watched the sixth sense tonight, and someone who hadn&#8217;t seen it attempted to start the argument that i destroy every time it&#8217;s brought up: the only reason why bruce willis doesn&#8217;t notice he&#8217;s dead is because he only sees snippets of his &#8220;life&#8221;. Cole tells him that the ghosts see what they want to see, and don&#8217;t know they&#8217;re dead. It gets cold when they&#8217;re angry, and they&#8217;re only angry once they realise they&#8217;re dead, hence why Bruce Willis&#8217;s wife is shivering when he figures it out. He didn&#8217;t get a whole life, he&#8217;d just pop in and out and not realise it.</p>
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		<title>By: fairportfan</title>
		<link>http://blog.spout.com/2008/09/17/10-movies-featuring-allegorical-ghosts/#comment-114302</link>
		<dc:creator>fairportfan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 07:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.spout.com/?p=5196#comment-114302</guid>
		<description>Ummm, i think the pod people were rather more representative of the McCarthy-ite drive for conformity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ummm, i think the pod people were rather more representative of the McCarthy-ite drive for conformity.</p>
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