Ari Folman’s animated documentary Waltz With Bashir includes himself as a central figure, and the film concerns his inability to remember events that occurred during the massacre in Lebanon in 1982. It’s a terrible and beautiful movie that isn’t just about war, but also comments on the human brain’s ability to shape itself by erasing events from our memories.

Talking to us at the Toronto Film Festival last week, Folman discussed going back in time for the project, the year he spent on a fake vacation, and what he’s working on next.

Why did you make the film now? Did you think about it previously?

I’ll tell you why. Five years ago I turned 40. I wanted to have a release from the reserve army. The Israeli reserve is for three years, and then every year for between two weeks and a month, depends on your job. I was a stupid screenwriter in the army for the past 20 years, writing those short commercials on how to defend yourself against an atomic attack, for example. I really got tired of it, so I told them I wanted out.

They said, “You can have a release, but you should go to see the army’s therapist for a few sessions. Tell him everything you went through in the army and you can get released.” I did. I went to him for 20 sessions, less maybe. Each one was a two hour session. In the end I thought for me that it was the first time ever to do my story. I was surprised. I was surprised I never spoke about it. I went to the inner circle of friends and family to try to figure out if other people feel the same, and I ended up with the idea of the film.

Were you surprised at what you didn’t remember or what you did remember?

I was surprised I never thought about it. I never dealt with it. When you’re deeply repressed and you don’t talk about something for a long time, five years, any story, you will have missing parts. So that is not a big deal. It’s not as if I went through a car accident, I had amnesia, I don’t remember my name. It’s like I have it, and I need to regain the missing parts. I can do it and this is it.

One of the characters in the film even asks you that, were you in an accident? You were surprised you could not remember. When you were going and visiting these people that you knew and asking them, did they have a similar experience to you in that this opened up old wounds for them or it was difficult for them to discuss?

It is. I think, except for the journalist in the film, who you can see by the way he’s interviewed that he was telling his story a thousand times; and he wrote it in a book 22 years ago; so it’s like push a button and he tells the story. The other guys went through an emotional journey inside. This is why I ended up with two characters that didn’t want to stay in the film, didn’t want their faces in the film. It was too tough for them.

So you didn’t use them at all, the people that didn’t?

I used their stories, but a couple of actors.

OK. That was the other thing I was going to ask. The takes with the people, were those the actual voices of the people you knew, or were those rerecorded by actors?

No, it’s like me, except for those two.

Was there opposition? You said there were a couple of people who didn’t want their faces used. Were there friends of yours or family that were like “You don’t need to make this film. This is in the past, we don’t need to discuss it” or was everyone supportive?

I think my father was a little bit concerned that it would cause trouble. Not really.

You said this came from HotDocs, the film started there. How long ago was that?

Three and a half years ago. March 2005.

So for two years the film had sort of been germinating in your mind, because you said it was about five years ago?

No, I worked on it.

You had some scenes, right?

I had one scene. One frame of the scene.

Now the animation…I heard you say that if this was just a documentary with talking heads, it would be easy to miss or not to pay attention to, but the animation really makes it stand out. I think that’s due to the look of the animation. You guys sort of invented this look, this style. So you filmed this first, or parts of it?

[We] filmed in sound studio everything we could. We dramatized as much as we could. If I was interviewing you in a car, we’d sit here, but that was just a reference. We didn’t do any rotoscope on it. It is a combination of cut out animation, 3D and plastic animation. If I had more money, I would do more plastic.

How long did that animation process take?

Two, two and a half years.

You said the animators were working with the finished score when they did that. I think that’s pretty unheard of in animation.

I think so too, in any kind of filmmaking.

It always comes later. Do you think that benefited the process?

It was a great idea. I think it changed a lot in the atmosphere of the film. I think I’m very influenced by music. For me it’s the best part of filmmaking, the fun part. I do less, and I love it. Everything around sound design. I thought that for them it would be really inspiring, and it was.

The songs that were chosen, some of those are pretty popular songs. Was it difficult to get music clearances for those?

It was not too difficult. It was a nightmare. I said I would never do it again, but now I know I will, because you must have songs in movies.

Yeah. That really made an impact, especially that 80s sound.

Yeah, but it’s a nightmare. Dealing with those music guys is a nightmare.

Someone I was sitting next to at the screening last night, when it was over and the credits were rolling, he was very angry. I didn’t even know this guy. He turned to me and he said, “Oh, this is typical of the Israeli government. They’re saying that they had no part in this. They pulled the trigger, I know.” He went on and on. I don’t know much about this massacre. He was adamant in telling me the Israeli soldiers were pulling the trigger.

No, they weren’t. What happened was tough enough in terms of involvement, especially for the government and the leadership. The Israeli soldiers didn’t kill people. It’s known. The facts are known. The BBC made a movie about it. The blame? The thing is that the leadership, if they knew, and I think they knew before, probably during the process they knew, they could have stopped it earlier and saved many lives. This was the issue. But Israeli troops were not in the camp. That’s the issue.

The flares that were being fired, were those being fired by the Israeli army?

Yeah, we fired the flares.

Just to see what was going on?

We got orders to fire flares. As you see in the film, there were circles of soldiers rounding the camps. The farther you were from the middle of the camp, the less you knew. The fact that we fired flares is a fact. We got orders, “Fire flares.” We had no clue why, but it’s a very common order in war, in battle. They wake you up and say “Light the skies”, so we lit the sky. We don’t know what’s going on down there.

The question of responsibility is personal. In Israel, the only criticism I got was from the left wing side saying the film doesn’t take enough blame. It’s funny because when I came here someone from the Jewish community came to me and said “Your film is not good for the community here. It shows Israel in a very bad manner.” There’s all manner of perspective.

It doesn’t deal with the government. I couldn’t care less about the government. I had no news. I had nothing to say that was new.

Your experience was new, how you dealt with it.

Yes, but in terms of news, facts about the events, I didn’t find anything.

The actual waltz with Bashir near the end of the film, the man who dances with the gun, that actually happened?

He didn’t dance. The dance is kind of a metaphor to tell you this a cinematic length of time, which is endless. You ask me now how long did it take. It might have taken ten seconds, it might have been at the longest a half minute. In terms of the moment that it happened, think about it. You have to cross some junction while you’re being shot at. You try to do it as fast as you can, it’s an eternity.

I wanted to emphasize it, to dramatize it in terms of cinema. We stayed there for a very long time.

Was he seized by the moment, was he kind of losing it? Was he evading gunfire?

He was losing it. He was totally losing it. He wanted the big gun to feel safe. He was frightened to death. He was losing it. When I first met him after 20 something years, because I had no exchange with those people ever after I went out of the army, he remembered it. He couldn’t see himself from the other side. He was more obsessed with the thing with the gun, because eventually the other guy died. For him, it was not the thing in the junction, but it was everybody remembered how long we stayed there. It’s a kind of miracle he was not shot, he was not hurt at all.

What’s next with the film? Has it been picked up, is it being released?

It’s been picked up. It was sold all over the world except Japan. All territories including Middle East, everywhere. As you see, I’m traveling. Sony picked it here in the US. It will travel in the US, all over the place. It starts in late December, after Christmas. I think, considering where we started here three and a half years ago, the film went pretty far.

Sure. It’s amazing. What’s next for you? You’re working on a new project?

I optioned Stanislaw Lem’s novel.

I’ve heard of the him.

He wrote Solaris. I optioned my all time favorite science fiction book. It’s going to be, part of it, real action, and most of it animated. I’m going to use the idea that I used here. It’s a fiction film of course, in future time. Instead of stepping into the past, you take the character and see what he’s going to be like in 20 year’s time. The novel is pretty wild and philosophic, and I’m really looking forward.

Is this going to be live action or animated or…?

Half and half. There’s going to be an American actress in there, she’ll be herself. Her name will be her story as a person.

What’s it called again?

The book is the Futurological Congress. As you can imagine, the title of the film will be different.

Yeah, it sounds like a textbook. So I was interested to read that you had created In Therapy.

I didn’t create, I wrote for it.

You wrote for the Israeli version. Do you watch the American version at all?

I saw my episodes.

Did you think they did a good job?

They did a pretty good job, in my opinion, in the adaptation. It’s weird that someone else’s title is on the screen as if he wrote the screenplay. We didn’t get the credit for it, because we’re not in the guild, which is a stupid thing. I liked it. I don’t adore the show anyhow because for me, as a screenwriter, it’s like a writing experience. Two people in one room, 30 minutes. I like the idea of it but I didn’t go on for a long time with it because I prefer film. You need the space. I didn’t have it and I got bored.

Would you return to the documentary format? Would you make another one?

Animated documentary? Never. [laughter] Not because it was difficult…

You’re not going to make it because it took so long?

No. Because it’s done. Would I tell another story that way, documentary? Why should I? I want to do something different. Once it was done, I don’t know if other people would do it. They probably will. It’s complicated and expensive for documentary. For me and friends who know me, it’s like you invented something that really is born for you. It takes everything you have.

You can combine everything, but the old format? It depends on the story. I want to do some fiction with it. I love the idea of animation and I love the combination. Recently, for the first time after many years, I’m just having trouble seeing films. I don’t have any passion for actors.

The reason I ask is because the story about your fake vacation sounds really interesting, and I would love to see maybe even a book or some printed form. That’s a great story. I want to read the fake version and see how convincing that was.

They were better than real. I think the journey I invented was probably much better than what those people did. Slept on stones. I had a better time.

And how old were you when you did that?

22. I did it for a year.

Did you save up money to do that? How were you able to do that?

I saved the money, yes. I went abroad. I planned to go for a year because it’s like the alternative. Every Israeli, this is his dream. Go out and backpack for a year, live alone and do as much drugs as you can. Try them all and then settle down. It’s typical, it’s such a clich. I was a clich too, so I went for it, but it was totally not for me. Not for my personality.

I would rather live in the city. I was not meant to. In a way, I was too young, stupid and arrogant to go back home and say after two weeks “Oh, I miss home, I miss my girlfriend.” I was so young, you know?

So two weeks you went abroad, and then you sort of settled down somewhere and wrote the fake letters?

I moved because I had the tickets. I moved.

You were in Asia?

Only in Asia. I had to move. It’s a long story. This travel was pretty amazing. I moved from country to country, and then all my money was gone so I wanted to go to work. I went on this anti nuclear protest boat going to Darving, Australia, in order to work on the farms in Australia. And it was a twin boat, it was called the Pacific Peacemaker. It was the twin boat of Rainbow Warrior. I was on that boat.

Was that with Greenpeace?

Yeah. I was on that boat, and I was like the Israeli representative. It was a big issue because my father was a nuclear scientist. I was on the boat, and there were nine people. They were really; I was in the middle of the ocean with them, and after a few weeks I left. They dropped me on an island because I thought I would never make it with them all the way to Australia. It was really a weird story.

When I came to Australia finally, the other boat was bombed. You know the story in Wellington.

Yeah, I remember that.

1985. It was a pretty amazing story.

Yeah. I want to hear all of it. I think it’s a good story. The last question I was going to ask is; throughout the multiyear process of making this film, the actual recording of your friends and colleagues talking to them, did you learn anything about yourself?

Yes. I learned, and most of all I got connected to myself; to the guy who I was when I was young.

So there had been a disconnect?

I was totally disconnected.

And how do you feel now?

Totally mended. I was totally repressed, disconnected. I saw the pictures and I was totally disconnected. It was a deliberate decision I took afterwards. Cut everything, I have nothing to do with it, with my service, with the people there. It’s not the people you grew up with. I was in this really tough unit that I was not ready for. It’s weird, because now I think about it more and more after the fact. I never thought about it.

Now I’m traveling and talking so much about the film, I find myself sometimes on a plane trying to understand what I felt like. Things like that.

It’s like the process is still going on, almost.

Yeah. No more films, though.

It was an amazing movie and I’m so glad everyone seemed to really enjoy it last night.

I was joking last night about it. “Don’t be sorry that you weren’t a journalist.” If I had to choose, I would go for drama. It’s an honors festival. If you travel the world, you see very few of these festivals. For us, those are the best.

Where it’s just the audience, no press. Not industry people.

No industry or any type of people.

Yeah, it was a 9:00 screening last night, and it was packed.

Packed with a different kind of people. Young and old. Those are the best screenings, always. Really high tension, high placed. It was amazing.

Yeah, it was really good. Congratulations. Very nice to meet you.

Thank you.