Comments on: Mumblecore, David Denby and the Line in the Sand http://blog.spout.com/2009/03/09/mumblecore-david-denby-and-the-line-in-the-sand/ Daily coverage of what is truly interesting in the film world Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:57:00 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: velodoccitane http://blog.spout.com/2009/03/09/mumblecore-david-denby-and-the-line-in-the-sand/#comment-123041 velodoccitane Tue, 17 Mar 2009 13:29:28 +0000 http://blog.spout.com/?p=11666#comment-123041 You get good comments on this site, I will say that! Rob, even though you are mostly correct (and very amusing), please calm your overt aggression. Take it easy and understand that passive aggression is the norm today. This argument is an on-going process that has no beginning or end: Karina will one day be a post-menopausal 50-something too one day, struggling to keep a grip on her sanity while she flickers out. . . and so-on, ad infinitum. It's go nothing to do with art (which is a constant). This argument is entirely about age as it pertains to cultural hegemony. You get good comments on this site, I will say that!

Rob, even though you are mostly correct (and very amusing), please calm your overt aggression. Take it easy and understand that passive aggression is the norm today. This argument is an on-going process that has no beginning or end: Karina will one day be a post-menopausal 50-something too one day, struggling to keep a grip on her sanity while she flickers out. . . and so-on, ad infinitum. It’s go nothing to do with art (which is a constant). This argument is entirely about age as it pertains to cultural hegemony.

]]> By: Rob http://blog.spout.com/2009/03/09/mumblecore-david-denby-and-the-line-in-the-sand/#comment-122816 Rob Sat, 14 Mar 2009 07:26:44 +0000 http://blog.spout.com/?p=11666#comment-122816 So many of you here have already said that which I could repeat here over and over and over again. But you said it better, so why bother? However, I would like to add a few things to this, um, discussion. I don't care if you DV'ers use the term "film" as a catch-all to describe your VIDEOS, because they are NOT films, they are, at best, movies, And I would argue that that is even a stretch. Choosing to bend the definition in order to suit your needs is desperate attempt at legitimizing a medium by using the term of another for the sake of defending your I've-got-a-camera-let's-make-a-movie-maybe-our-fellow-filmmaker friends-and sycophantic follows-will-like-it aesthetic. Many years ago, Francis Ford Coppola got into some hot water after commenting on the democratization of moviemaking in light of the avent of emerging video technologies, "One day some little fat girl in Ohio is going to be the new Mozart" Well, I've been waiting for that fat girl ever since, whilst Mozart is still rolling around in a Vienna ditch. The secret is out, kids. Your experiential, slice-of-life tales are not artful in any sense of the word. Your movies are largely plotless because you are simply not creative and/or smart enough to develop any. And that's why your movies play one-offs and are relegated to VOD services, because an overwhelming majority of moviegoers don't want to pay ten bucks to see your little, home movies when all they have to do is look outside their windows. And the last time I checked, the art of looking was free, which is a value greater than the excrement you hoist up onto movie screens. So many of you here have already said that which I could repeat here over and over and over again. But you said it better, so why bother? However, I would like to add a few things to this, um, discussion.

I don’t care if you DV’ers use the term “film” as a catch-all to describe your VIDEOS, because they are NOT films, they are, at best, movies, And I would argue that that is even a stretch. Choosing to bend the definition in order to suit your needs is desperate attempt at legitimizing a medium by using the term of another for the sake of defending your I’ve-got-a-camera-let’s-make-a-movie-maybe-our-fellow-filmmaker friends-and sycophantic follows-will-like-it aesthetic.

Many years ago, Francis Ford Coppola got into some hot water after commenting on the democratization of moviemaking in light of the avent of emerging video technologies, “One day some little fat girl in Ohio is going to be the new Mozart” Well, I’ve been waiting for that fat girl ever since, whilst Mozart is still rolling around in a Vienna ditch.

The secret is out, kids. Your experiential, slice-of-life tales are not artful in any sense of the word. Your movies are largely plotless because you are simply not creative and/or smart enough to develop any. And that’s why your movies play one-offs and are relegated to VOD services, because an overwhelming majority of moviegoers don’t want to pay ten bucks to see your little, home movies when all they have to do is look outside their windows. And the last time I checked, the art of looking was free, which is a value greater than the excrement you hoist up onto movie screens.

]]> By: Pierre http://blog.spout.com/2009/03/09/mumblecore-david-denby-and-the-line-in-the-sand/#comment-122492 Pierre Tue, 10 Mar 2009 19:04:25 +0000 http://blog.spout.com/?p=11666#comment-122492 ]]> By: Pierre http://blog.spout.com/2009/03/09/mumblecore-david-denby-and-the-line-in-the-sand/#comment-122484 Pierre Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:58:06 +0000 http://blog.spout.com/?p=11666#comment-122484 For me, any concerns towards Mumblecore are valid as there is always sincerity in question when it comes specifically to Swanberg. Whilst Katz and Bujalski's direction and plotting is skilled enough to operate an air of authenticity and entertainment, I'm not always sold with Swanberg. A few too many scenes/instances/dialogues ring false in his work. This is bad considering Swanberg's works makes up a large proportion of the movement. So basically I agree with Glenn that it's a case-to-case assessment rather than a generalisation. I don't have much to add except for these two things: Youthquake is a *horrible* term and There is meant to be a 'U' in humour. Learn to spell, Americans. For me, any concerns towards Mumblecore are valid as there is always sincerity in question when it comes specifically to Swanberg. Whilst Katz and Bujalski’s direction and plotting is skilled enough to operate an air of authenticity and entertainment, I’m not always sold with Swanberg. A few too many scenes/instances/dialogues ring false in his work. This is bad considering Swanberg’s works makes up a large proportion of the movement.

So basically I agree with Glenn that it’s a case-to-case assessment rather than a generalisation.

I don’t have much to add except for these two things:

Youthquake is a *horrible* term
and
There is meant to be a ‘U’ in humour. Learn to spell, Americans.

]]> By: iamanonymous http://blog.spout.com/2009/03/09/mumblecore-david-denby-and-the-line-in-the-sand/#comment-122467 iamanonymous Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:18:49 +0000 http://blog.spout.com/?p=11666#comment-122467 Although I haven't seen Swanberg's newest, the trailer appears to tread nothing new for the filmmaker. My own criticism then for Denby, and I've already qualified this, is that Swanberg's film seem to continue, even with his newest, to lack any semblance of artful filmmaking. Although I haven’t seen Swanberg’s newest, the trailer appears to tread nothing new for the filmmaker. My own criticism then for Denby, and I’ve already qualified this, is that Swanberg’s film seem to continue, even with his newest, to lack any semblance of artful filmmaking.

]]> By: Andy B http://blog.spout.com/2009/03/09/mumblecore-david-denby-and-the-line-in-the-sand/#comment-122452 Andy B Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:30:43 +0000 http://blog.spout.com/?p=11666#comment-122452 Oh, and I put "movement" in quotes because the label gets in the way of talking about "particular filmmakers, particular films" as Glenn rightly puts it. In that way, much of the harshest criticism has certainly been targeted at Swanberg. Oh, and I put “movement” in quotes because the label gets in the way of talking about “particular filmmakers, particular films” as Glenn rightly puts it. In that way, much of the harshest criticism has certainly been targeted at Swanberg.

]]> By: Andy B http://blog.spout.com/2009/03/09/mumblecore-david-denby-and-the-line-in-the-sand/#comment-122447 Andy B Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:53:24 +0000 http://blog.spout.com/?p=11666#comment-122447 Glenn's comment is right on target. And Denby's assessment seems pretty fair, even on the generous side. I speak as a late twenty-something cinephile who has followed this "movement" and found little to celebrate in the stories told (and lives represented), nor in the general lack of cinematic ambition. As long as festivals and distribs (namely SXSW and IFC) prop up the work, it remains fair game for criticism. As for snark/sincerity, I always welcome authentic voices that show an awareness of the world that's larger than an obsession with self. Glenn’s comment is right on target. And Denby’s assessment seems pretty fair, even on the generous side.

I speak as a late twenty-something cinephile who has followed this “movement” and found little to celebrate in the stories told (and lives represented), nor in the general lack of cinematic ambition.

As long as festivals and distribs (namely SXSW and IFC) prop up the work, it remains fair game for criticism.

As for snark/sincerity, I always welcome authentic voices that show an awareness of the world that’s larger than an obsession with self.

]]> By: Jerry http://blog.spout.com/2009/03/09/mumblecore-david-denby-and-the-line-in-the-sand/#comment-122404 Jerry Tue, 10 Mar 2009 01:04:23 +0000 http://blog.spout.com/?p=11666#comment-122404 Mr. Kenny, you are right. No need to go further. As a democratic effort to barely turn a camera on and film young folks having sex at best, or wasting time with long silly pauses at worst, they win. After all, everyone has a right to film themselves and their friends. To sale it as filmed art is another matter all together. Wiht the exception of some of Katz's work, they should have kept them in a big cardboard box maked "film school" in magic marker instead of trying to sale them. Jerry Mr. Kenny, you are right. No need to go further. As a democratic effort to barely turn a camera on and film young folks having sex at best, or wasting time with long silly pauses at worst, they win.

After all, everyone has a right to film themselves and their friends.

To sale it as filmed art is another matter all together. Wiht the exception of some of Katz’s work, they should have kept them in a big cardboard box maked “film school” in magic marker instead of trying to sale them.

Jerry

]]> By: aaron g http://blog.spout.com/2009/03/09/mumblecore-david-denby-and-the-line-in-the-sand/#comment-122401 aaron g Tue, 10 Mar 2009 00:46:40 +0000 http://blog.spout.com/?p=11666#comment-122401 i'm w/ glenn on this. i just turned 28 and i find "mumblecore" to be as phony, cloistered, and insular as an episode of the hills (and just as white and privileged). actually, that's not true--i think the hills is more truthful and realistic than "mumblecore." there is nothing skillful or artful about what swanberg and bujalski do, nor do they speak for me or any of my friends. it's obnoxious that anyone would possibly think "mumblecore" speaks for a generation. "mumblecore" films are about a very specific type of person; bujalski and swanberg lack the insight and curiosity into exploring worlds and people who don't look, act, and think like they do. i’m w/ glenn on this. i just turned 28 and i find “mumblecore” to be as phony, cloistered, and insular as an episode of the hills (and just as white and privileged). actually, that’s not true–i think the hills is more truthful and realistic than “mumblecore.” there is nothing skillful or artful about what swanberg and bujalski do, nor do they speak for me or any of my friends. it’s obnoxious that anyone would possibly think “mumblecore” speaks for a generation. “mumblecore” films are about a very specific type of person; bujalski and swanberg lack the insight and curiosity into exploring worlds and people who don’t look, act, and think like they do.

]]> By: Karina Longworth http://blog.spout.com/2009/03/09/mumblecore-david-denby-and-the-line-in-the-sand/#comment-122379 Karina Longworth Mon, 09 Mar 2009 22:03:37 +0000 http://blog.spout.com/?p=11666#comment-122379 I thought it was interesting that Denby didn't mention BEESWAX. You'd think, if he was such a Bujalski fan, he'd at least be aware of it and think its existence was worth noting in this conversation, even if he hasn't yet seen it. For what it's worth, I'm half English and was taught various words with a "u" spelling, and even after all this time sometimes I slip. But, yeah, funny joke. I thought it was interesting that Denby didn’t mention BEESWAX. You’d think, if he was such a Bujalski fan, he’d at least be aware of it and think its existence was worth noting in this conversation, even if he hasn’t yet seen it.

For what it’s worth, I’m half English and was taught various words with a “u” spelling, and even after all this time sometimes I slip. But, yeah, funny joke.

]]> By: Glenn Kenny http://blog.spout.com/2009/03/09/mumblecore-david-denby-and-the-line-in-the-sand/#comment-122373 Glenn Kenny Mon, 09 Mar 2009 20:47:56 +0000 http://blog.spout.com/?p=11666#comment-122373 I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall, but I'll try it one more time: this debate isn't about "films that strive for a certain realism regarding life as a twenty-something today" and how the man doesn't want you twenty-somethings to have them, but about films that are successful and films that are pernicious, artless con jobs. Bully for you that you hedge towards Denby's provisional thumbs-up for sincerity, but you'll note that when he presses himself to defend the putative school of filmmakers, it's Bujalski and Katz he cites, not Swanberg. It's never about "voices" of a "generation." It's always about particular filmmakers, particular films. I may think that Emily Gould is way less smart than David Denby, but you know what? She was dead right about "Hannah Takes The Stairs." Also, what's with "humour"? Did you become Canadian over this weekend? (It's a joke, really, it's just a joke...) I feel like I’m banging my head against a wall, but I’ll try it one more time: this debate isn’t about “films that strive for a certain realism regarding life as a twenty-something today” and how the man doesn’t want you twenty-somethings to have them, but about films that are successful and films that are pernicious, artless con jobs. Bully for you that you hedge towards Denby’s provisional thumbs-up for sincerity, but you’ll note that when he presses himself to defend the putative school of filmmakers, it’s Bujalski and Katz he cites, not Swanberg.

It’s never about “voices” of a “generation.” It’s always about particular filmmakers, particular films. I may think that Emily Gould is way less smart than David Denby, but you know what? She was dead right about “Hannah Takes The Stairs.”

Also, what’s with “humour”? Did you become Canadian over this weekend? (It’s a joke, really, it’s just a joke…)

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